Mindful Pauses: ERP Project Wellness Checks

Discover the concept of a "mindful pause" in our latest podcast episode with Avero CEO Abhijit Verekar and leading digital transformation thought leader Judith O'Callaghan. This innovative approach involves taking mindful breaks during transformation programs to reassess and align with objectives. Learn how ancient trading cultures' practices can enhance modern-day project management, especially in ERP implementations. Join us as we explore practical steps, the importance of change management, and real-life examples of successful conscious pauses. Perfect for professionals seeking sustainable and effective project outcomes.

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Transcript

00;00;00;19 - 00;00;30;22
Speaker 1
Welcome to untangled. Whether you are a local government leader tirelessly searching for trailblazing solutions to operational hurdles in it, professional with a zeal for public sector technology or a curious mind intrigued by the symbiosis of technology and governance, untangled is your platform. Join us on this fascinating journey as we explore how technology can revolutionize local governance. Effective, sustainable, cutting edge solutions are not just for the deep pockets private sector anymore.

00;00;30;25 - 00;00;33;20
Speaker 1
Let's get untangled.

00;00;33;23 - 00;00;57;26
Speaker 2
good morning and welcome to, Avero live stream. This week. we have a very special guest all the way from down under, from Brisbane. Judith O'Callaghan, who I will introduce here, very shortly. but just some housekeeping. you know, if you are joining us from around the world, pop into the chat, tell us where you're calling from, chatting from joining from.

00;00;57;28 - 00;01;21;26
Speaker 2
And if you have any questions, put them in the chat box and we will answer them as we go along. the live stream. but I'm really excited to welcome Judith to the show. I've heard so much about you have seen so much of your content and your work that, I'm inspired by the work that you're doing, and, I, you know, I really want to bring this to our audience.

00;01;21;29 - 00;01;28;16
Speaker 2
so, Judith, welcome to the show. And, why don't you tell us a little bit about. But who you are.

00;01;28;18 - 00;01;52;28
Speaker 3
Well, thank you very much, AV, and thanks for that wonderful introduction and the opportunity to be here with you. So I am Judith O'Callahan. I'm one of the program directors here, and I'm a happy thought leader. ERP has been my passion for over two decades. so it is wonderful to be in that space and share and learn.

00;01;53;00 - 00;02;10;23
Speaker 2
Excellent. and so tell us about where you got started in this business, because no one grows up wanting to be an ERP consultant. I don't have it right. I didn't. And I know we grew ups somewhat. Yeah. Similarly in the world. So tell me when this where this happened.

00;02;10;25 - 00;02;36;08
Speaker 3
Exactly. Right. So this is interesting. So that's where we were chatting. I grew up in South India. So closer to where? Yeah, there you are. So yeah, the traditional stop time was, you either went the medical stream or the engineering stream, so I took the engineering stream. So. And after that I did the MBA because at engineering, I felt like there is, not a lot of creativity.

00;02;36;12 - 00;02;58;24
Speaker 3
My so my style of creativity. So I was looking for myself and the family has a has strong business roots. So I was somehow drawn to the business side of things. I, I wanted an MBA, so I did my MBA, and it was great. So at the second year for and I was looking at specializations, looking at what I want to do.

00;02;58;27 - 00;03;24;26
Speaker 3
One of Yan's books on notes attracted me towards the ERP. So, yeah. And that's when I was going, okay, that blends technology and the business together. So which I really love. So yeah, it's an opportunity to have a meaningful change in the business. And it's a vehicle for change, which I really love. And I'm a big believer in making the world a better place.

00;03;24;26 - 00;03;37;03
Speaker 3
So that's very, you know, very interesting to say that I genuinely believe in many cases if we do it right. world gets better. And so. Wow, I got to. Yeah, yeah.

00;03;37;05 - 00;04;03;16
Speaker 2
That's incredible. And you know, for for those that are just joining us, haven't joined us before. I know I'm the founder and CEO at Avero Advisors and we are an independent, ERP and modernization consulting firm. in the US, we work across the US with, government agencies of all kinds. And, we are live every Wednesday and we also publish podcasts and, newsletters and blogs.

00;04;03;16 - 00;04;24;03
Speaker 2
So please check us out on all of our channels. And, there's a lot of great content for there for everyone. whether you are in the ERP hunt or not, it's it's a great, educational tool. and in the audience, thanks for joining us, Jake. From Greenville, South Carolina. He's actually on our team, one of our, project managers.

00;04;24;06 - 00;04;43;12
Speaker 2
And, feel free to ask questions in the chat again. And we'll follow up throughout the live stream. so, Judith, one of the things that really caught my attention in your work is this is this concept of the conscious pause, mindful pause. Explain that to us a little bit.

00;04;43;14 - 00;05;11;19
Speaker 3
So, conscious pause, mindful pause. State zero, as many people call it. originally when we coined the term, it was last year and three of us kind of came came up with it together. My version of this is it is the conscious pause. So what it is, is, what was before you start a transformation program or, choosing to pause at different stages in that transformation program.

00;05;11;21 - 00;05;38;12
Speaker 3
So the reason, this is important, in my opinion, is, is that in ancient trading cultures, before you embark on any journey and so you would know, the family comes together to pause and assess what is needed and going ahead. So in the modern day times, it could be a simple, the simple thing on where, you know, where you would like to be.

00;05;38;14 - 00;06;08;20
Speaker 3
so every time, every time a program starts, it's, you know, you and I know in the client, it's ready. Everybody goes just bang on. So everyone's good at running. So this conscious pause is in a position to, you know, help reassess and then center ourselves as we move on. So in addition to thinking about, you know, ticking the boxes, this helps us understand which boxes to tick.

00;06;08;22 - 00;06;36;22
Speaker 2
So how do you actually do this in practice? Right. Because you in in program project management. organizational change management is huge. You're doing these 3 to 5 year large engagements. for ERP replacements. And there is a practice of weaving in change management throughout the project. How does how does conscious pause. stage zero. mindful. But how does that play into this.

00;06;36;26 - 00;06;38;23
Speaker 2
How do you practically do this.

00;06;38;25 - 00;07;01;06
Speaker 3
So in in my opinion you can do it in many ways. So again, for the audience, the clarity of the audience, this is different to the change management or training or any of the other things that we do in a Brooklyn. So this is a conscious effort to pause and assess the five things. So you do it at the start.

00;07;01;07 - 00;07;33;04
Speaker 3
So definitely I would recommend you definitely do it at the start. So and look for lessons from the past which may have, answers for the future. So this is an active investment from the sponsors and everyone involved in the program to go and look for people who have walked the path before. Even though a lot of programs say we are pioneer programs, there is nothing new under the sun, so there is always something or some elements of some programs that would be useful to work with the people.

00;07;33;06 - 00;07;56;11
Speaker 3
And most importantly, know your organization and know what you stand for. So in many of the organizations that I've been involved or many translations, it happened still mostly once a decade. So for many people, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity for that labor. So clearly understand your values and very standpoint and know the industry and those who you are serving.

00;07;56;13 - 00;08;25;27
Speaker 3
Sometimes this is a very good eye opener because, you know it. You open up to things like, okay, those are my real stakeholders as life has changed. So I need to be serving them in addition to this or like I need to be serving them more or the industry has changed. We need we need a better thing, better way of serving this group of people and stuff and see how, those who are involved, who needs to be involved and those who are impacted.

00;08;26;00 - 00;08;50;27
Speaker 3
So it's a very easy thing to do a business impact assessment. But it's it's worth doing it upfront with the right effort to get those who are, who need to be involved and impacted. This speaks volumes. And the last one that I firmly believe is give and receive, which is the fundamentals of life. So understand what the program's giving and what the programs receiving.

00;08;51;03 - 00;08;58;13
Speaker 3
And also at a wider level, that is always a give and take on what it is. And that is gold.

00;08;58;15 - 00;09;29;23
Speaker 2
And this all of this is cultural because, you know, you're tying in like almost a practice of meditation and, into something as fraught with risk and irritating to most people. And ERP implementation. Right. It's it's taking a pause to observe, which is the basic fundamentals of a meditative practice, just just once and don't get involved. Don't don't engage with your feelings and see what are around you.

00;09;29;23 - 00;09;36;24
Speaker 2
Right. And and so you do that at the beginning of kicking off a project almost pre kickoff and then pre.

00;09;36;25 - 00;09;38;07
Speaker 3
Kickoff much before kickoff.

00;09;38;08 - 00;10;01;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and you do it at at regular intervals within the project because they're your risk register grows and your change management is not going well. And people are upset and leaving the team. It's a good time to take a mindful pause and not think of yourself as the player in the project, but just observe from from a from the greater ahead.

00;10;01;21 - 00;10;32;20
Speaker 2
So, this is extremely fascinating. to. Yeah. And and commend you for like actually putting this in practice. So we touched on this a little bit, but how often should do think that the team should take, a mindful pause while you, while you're in your process and in audience, you know, you guys, please tell us what you think, how often the mindful pause should, take place in a in a in a large project.

00;10;32;22 - 00;10;34;03
Speaker 2
Go ahead.

00;10;34;05 - 00;10;57;04
Speaker 3
so in my opinion, really, while we wait for the feedback from the audience, more the better. Yeah. So this is about creating the space to know. So this is a concept that I have learned from one of my mentors, Bernie Kelly, who saw was a great thought leader in the space as well. And he does it from a strategic point for a lot of organizations and industry.

00;10;57;06 - 00;11;21;28
Speaker 3
So we talk about conundrums and many other things, as we explore that. But the important the important thing is consciousness doesn't necessarily happen. So this is about creating the space to have the conscious force. So it can't. So more the better. So definitely at the at the start we would recommend that you do it. Find time to do it though.

00;11;21;28 - 00;11;43;22
Speaker 3
There are deadlines and all the other things that are wondering, you take whatever time that is needed to do it and then again, at least every three months. So that's again, very, you know, very rough guide. And some programs would definitely need to need more. So there is a question for the audience on how long it would take.

00;11;43;22 - 00;12;08;02
Speaker 3
And it's definitely not an instrument for us. So and consciousness doesn't have to involve a whole group of, you know, everyone in the program to just put it on hold and work through that. So it has to be very selective on who needs to be involved and how you approach it. Maybe at the start to have sponsors and very senior to set this stage right.

00;12;08;04 - 00;12;18;28
Speaker 3
And at different stages you have different groups involving and then with non, collect information or see what comes out of it. So that's a wonderful question.

00;12;19;01 - 00;12;45;29
Speaker 2
Yeah it is. Thanks. Play. And it's not necessarily a pause where you're stopping activity. Right. The data conversions can go on and configuration can go on. It's to me it seems like it's the sponsorship team. It's the you know people that are making decisions that that typically end up having friction within within. That's the those are the people that need to step away for, I don't know, half a day, two hours.

00;12;46;02 - 00;12;47;18
Speaker 2
with, with a guided session. Right.

00;12;47;19 - 00;12;49;10
Speaker 3
They can be the guided session.

00;12;49;10 - 00;13;11;17
Speaker 2
Guided session that you have a sort of a coach or a guru walking you through this. Yeah. now excellent question. Thanks, Clay and Kyler. Our friend Kyler says, is that path possible in government or public sector environments? I assume the pressure is on from constituents. Is is focused on actual results, no matter the quality.

00;13;11;19 - 00;13;39;06
Speaker 3
you know, that's a very good, very good take on it. Right? So what we are finding is a lot of programs, sometimes we, are not, providing the outcome that is needed. So the answer could be in this, who knows. Right. So, it doesn't have to be a very long thing. As we discussed. So government, public sector, probably anyone who is into transformation would benefit out of this.

00;13;39;09 - 00;13;40;12
Speaker 3
It.

00;13;40;14 - 00;14;09;21
Speaker 2
Yeah. And government specifically, it is it's very possible if, if not more so than in the, in the industry in general, because things do moves slower by design. It is the government, right. We trust them with our money. So they they should be as careful as they can be. So things are slower. the pressure is, is not necessarily on from constituents because they, they come into the picture at the very end of the project.

00;14;09;21 - 00;14;29;25
Speaker 2
If there is some customer facing, products that they're implementing, but really it's internal. They haven't done it in a long time. and like Judith said, this is a once in a lifetime project. If you don't do it right or it's a once a year project, if you don't do it right. So so it is, it's very possible.

00;14;29;28 - 00;14;49;05
Speaker 2
and we do it in different formats, right? We call it we may call it something else, but there's always, always pauses, that are possible in any project. Judith, can you share some real life examples, of how you've done wellness? Wellness. Yeah.

00;14;49;08 - 00;15;22;18
Speaker 3
Absolutely. And this is so with the one of the industry colleagues that we both know about from me and Wayne Holt. And this is, this program is close to our heart. So with the with this program, we were looking at providing you as part of the program, one of the things was to provide a reporting solution. So it's a very old very interesting organization with more than 200 plus reports processed every every week and sent to one specific group for the board to make decision making and all that.

00;15;22;18 - 00;15;49;04
Speaker 3
So it's yes, it's good to say we need all the information for decision making. And what we realized during this conscious false phase is one of the reasons all these reports are needed is because, because they are trying to work. What what happened in the past. So and the other one is they needed, we need we did another exercise, which was able to point out the five parameters that are so important for decision making.

00;15;49;06 - 00;16;12;11
Speaker 3
So what they were looking for basically was that dashboard or a trend analysis kind of thing, which gives people what they want it. That is what's going on. And for the decision makers, it's the five things that was which could be captured in multiple dashboards that made the decision. So yes, it saved a lot of time, a lot of money and a whole bunch of other things as well.

00;16;12;14 - 00;16;37;08
Speaker 3
But it's the thought process of shifting, you know, you need so many things for a decision making. So yes, we are looking at this decision making and it's, and it's a completely different thing of if there is a problem, let's go and address it to a completely reactive option in having all the data absolutely be absolutely needed for, different purposes and stuff.

00;16;37;16 - 00;17;00;21
Speaker 3
So for me, it's a conscious what is that, is an opportunity for shifting thinking and lifting a lifting everything to a higher trajectory where it can. And I've seen programs in one of the programs. They realized that, the community they thought they were serving or basically their stakeholder group or the, group they need to serve or not necessarily the community.

00;17;00;23 - 00;17;32;15
Speaker 3
Right? So they are necessarily serving the stakeholders of their stakeholders. But this was a, again, a utility they thought they serving, serving under their utility. But basically, no, you're serving the users of that utility, right. So providing users the visibility of your outages or whatever else improves the quality of life for you, but for definitely good stakeholder engagement and other things, they and the life for the other utility, who you know, with whom you're transacting with.

00;17;32;15 - 00;17;59;08
Speaker 3
So these are, you know, opportunities of gold that come out of this conscious forces. And do we have all the information upfront? Sometimes we might programs might. But as the programs grow or I would call it as we start getting into the details of it, it could be the design or it could be even during a build or whatever phase that you are in, we still discover information.

00;17;59;11 - 00;18;27;21
Speaker 3
So what are we going to do with that information? That is what is more important. And in my opinion, the question from Jake is what kind of, you know, language should a project program manager use to do it? So this is a very good opportunity right? So reporting is a very powerful tool, as we all know, as those who have done programs and program managers or project managers can call for this at any point in time.

00;18;27;28 - 00;18;48;16
Speaker 3
So there is no, there is, what do you call no substitute to the intuition offer program, project or program manager? They if they know something, they know something. So it's not what the report says. When the program manager says there is an opportunity there, or a project manager says we need to tap and tap into this more, just believe in it.

00;18;48;16 - 00;18;53;14
Speaker 3
There is gold in there. So like that, it's more than gold in there. So tap into.

00;18;53;14 - 00;19;16;06
Speaker 2
It. And and that's such a good point Judith, because you know, you can. Who makes a good project program manager. Right. Is it is it someone that can maintain a checklist and do a stall or, you know, if you're if you're sitting around waiting for someone else to tell you what the important things are, there's so many unknowns.

00;19;16;09 - 00;19;49;00
Speaker 2
And they all come back to us dealing with people as as consultants, project managers, program managers. Again, 90% of this is not a technical project. 90% of this is a people project. So intuition plays such a big role in identifying those spaces where you need a conscious pause, identifying that language that that comes from comes from within. Like you have to learn how to trust your instinct and gut a lot as a, as a good program manager.

00;19;49;00 - 00;19;56;14
Speaker 2
And then you can the language provides itself, but it also comes with some experience and setbacks and failures.

00;19;56;16 - 00;19;58;21
Speaker 3
Absolutely.

00;19;58;23 - 00;20;20;22
Speaker 2
a great question, Jake. Thank you. we have a comment from Lexi. The more the better. If you want the project to be done right in the first way, take extra time and rush through it and result in a failed implementation. Amen. Yes, that is absolutely correct. so with my next like pondering is how do you how do.

00;20;20;24 - 00;20;49;10
Speaker 2
So first of all, who does this right? Is it is it program managers? Is it the software vendor with everybody. And how do you how do you coordinate this. Because if the client is doing this right, they have the vendor. They have a program manager project management team sort of bringing it all together. So who's responsibility is this one and two because the vendor is incentivized to set the thing up and leave.

00;20;49;12 - 00;20;59;13
Speaker 2
How do you get them to take a conscious pause and get involved in this? Because their incentives are not aligned with more often than not with the clients?

00;20;59;15 - 00;21;28;27
Speaker 3
Okay. You touched on a very good thing, right? So now a lot of people in the industry talk about it. So kind of Scott, if you know when everyone talks about this. So for an organization, no matter who is involved or who you have outsourced it to, the a risk is the organizations. So it's more like a person going getting into a surgery or a, you know, preparing for a surgery.

00;21;29;03 - 00;21;59;26
Speaker 3
So who needs to prepare? Yes, definitely the person in this case the organization. So the first stage of conscious was in my opinion, I would say get the people in the organization involved. This is even before the vendor is in play or any, you know, there is even a business case in some cases, some whenever, you know, as early as possible, have this period and understand what it is that you are going to do.

00;21;59;28 - 00;22;27;04
Speaker 3
And this will give you the size and scale of everything. So things like knowing the organization and well, you know, what do you stand for? Things like that help you pick the right vendor or the partner who is are like totally aligned to your values. And if the when if someone's not into this conscious boss or any of the other things that you may want to do as a program, maybe that partner, is not aligned to your values.

00;22;27;04 - 00;22;56;10
Speaker 3
So that's just one of the takes on it. And also not knowing the needs of who's involved and who would be impacted. And this would help understand what type of change management that is needed. So, one of the programs that, I had worked and we introduced a very different type of change management. That is because we were able to get the data or get the information through the conscious process and understand what type of, change management that would be needed.

00;22;56;12 - 00;23;20;28
Speaker 3
So again, the information that comes out of it and the intuition and the ability to connect with other stakeholders in the program is called. So that is the real opportunity that we are looking for. And again during the lifecycle of the program, have as many as needed and again have it targeted with the focus group or with multiple people need it.

00;23;21;00 - 00;23;42;14
Speaker 3
And in any program, this is a common mistake that happens across the world. but the best thing a good program is normally owned and run by the organization. You call the shots, not the vendor, not anyone else involved. It's your baby. So babysitters may have been you, but it's your baby yet.

00;23;42;17 - 00;23;58;03
Speaker 2
Right? so Kyle's asking questions. Great. sounds great, but what about the current climate in the industry of vendors pressuring cloud migration example at the S-400s, right?

00;23;58;03 - 00;24;00;04
Speaker 3
Yeah. And and it's a tight time.

00;24;00;06 - 00;24;36;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. And for those who don't know what the the issue is, is it, you know, clients are being. I don't want to say use the word forced. but but their current versions of software are being sunset, and we're about to release a series of videos on what that means and how to deal with that. but how do you how do you do conscious pauses and how do you think about the current climate in the industry with pressure to move to the cloud, which which, you know, as we know now, ten years ago, cloud was the answer to everything software as a service.

00;24;36;17 - 00;24;47;27
Speaker 2
We've now found that there are significant downsides for people, you know, organizations that it doesn't work for. So how do you see this and how do you help our clients deal with this?

00;24;48;00 - 00;25;18;02
Speaker 3
So this is a good opportunity right? In my opinion. So be it 2027 or 2030. Who cares. So, this is a disruption and every disruption comes with its own set of opportunities. So it did a for me. I believe this is an opportunity for many organizations to undertake the conscious and have those five things answered for and still understand what's the pathway forward, if the pathway forward for them, for that organization.

00;25;18;05 - 00;25;41;14
Speaker 3
And in this case, it's not influenced by any other sources or including the vendors, is if the pathway for that organization is to go on that specific cloud journey. Absolutely. That's right. But if the organization comes up with alternate bots, they need, you know, it it it keeps them to understand why they came up with that alternate path and then work the way, work not the way forward.

00;25;41;17 - 00;25;51;08
Speaker 3
So any disruption it's an opportunity for more innovation. So yeah, this is the gift that comes out of it.

00;25;51;11 - 00;26;16;25
Speaker 2
so, you know, not not every organization is the same, right? Yeah. Regardless of industry, even in government, you know, no two clients are there's similar, but they're not the same. What in your experience are some, signs early on that point you to to the fact that these this organization might need to come more mindful pausing.

00;26;16;26 - 00;26;17;16
Speaker 3
Wellness.

00;26;17;19 - 00;26;21;23
Speaker 2
A little more attention on on that front.

00;26;21;25 - 00;26;41;17
Speaker 3
That's a very good question. Right. So all of us needed at some stage, you know, at different points at different stages and some organizations and most of us can feel it. Again, most program directors who are listening to this would say, you walk into a situation and you would straight away know, what's that? What's going to happen?

00;26;41;17 - 00;27;12;19
Speaker 3
So it's kind of one of the radars in our brain that just goes on. So again, it comes with experience, battle scars and so many things. So every organization in my opinion is existing for a reason. Definitely. They are looking at their best to serve their stakeholders and in the most, indignant possible way, they it's it's you know, being it's the immediate stakeholders are those they're serving in the organization.

00;27;12;19 - 00;27;40;23
Speaker 3
Everybody wants to wants to do the right thing. So in some places when we, when we step into the environment, there would be, you know, in every, every where there is an opportunity for more alignment in some places, as you can see, there's opportunity for a lot more alignment. And this is a good opportunity to go, okay, how about we undertake this exercise and this is this is a conscious thing as well.

00;27;41;00 - 00;27;55;10
Speaker 3
So there could be every science and they may choose to ignore it. But again, the writing is always on the wall if we want to read it. And when you see, you see so that's, that is that it's the ideas.

00;27;55;12 - 00;28;19;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and so again, back to intuition, back to experience, back to battle scars. back to not running projects by checklist because the, the there is there is no list of signs to see. I mean we could sit here and come up with them, but it'll take us years to exhaust every sign that that you see that this team might need more attention.

00;28;19;23 - 00;28;49;05
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. And same with, you know, I normally compare it with, with health or anything. Right. So if something needs attention and, you know, even before anything happens. So watch out for those signs. And same with the programs of projects. So I was talking to a pro program excuse, sorry, program rescue expert yesterday and would be looking forward to having that in the Butterfly Effect podcast.

00;28;49;07 - 00;29;20;13
Speaker 3
So he has done many, many rescues. And one of the things that he was telling that telling us in that was do not underestimate the power of intuition. So when you feel something needs to be done, pause and make sure it is done. And that is our jobs as program directors or program managers or coaching managers. So it is like we have every right to do that, though it may not be the most elegant thing or the most political thing to do.

00;29;20;16 - 00;29;27;08
Speaker 3
Yeah. In the in the view of the greater good. Trust your intuition, follow your heart.

00;29;27;10 - 00;29;57;03
Speaker 2
Which is great life advice. Like this. This. This isn't just ERP advice. and so it practically, you know. Right. You're in the middle of an ERP implementation. This is month eight of 36 and people are have their, you know, frayed ends and their. Yeah, feathers ruffled and but what how does this work practically like do you do you gather people in a, in a conference room and go to like a breathing exercise.

00;29;57;03 - 00;30;18;15
Speaker 3
And that's who I was. you know, I was discussing the best way to approach this with that. Some of the, some of my industry colleagues who are closely collaborate and work with. So one of the things that we see this one working is we can we either do it as an online, session or an in-person.

00;30;18;15 - 00;30;38;07
Speaker 3
So in person, both of them have its own flavor. So end of the day, it's the team that really matters. So it doesn't matter whether we do, you know, whether we do it online or with or in person. So what is their is what is their kind of thing and be work with or work with that.

00;30;38;13 - 00;31;12;14
Speaker 3
So I would recommend this to be facilitated by multiple people throughout. it because it has a lot of soft aspects to it as well as some different aspects to it. So it is it is one of the, it is one of the best things that we would, we would recommend. And again, start with, everything that we know that opens up our mind, not necessarily one part of the mind, which is the data channel to open up the other part of the mind, which is the positive, caution channel or PKU channel.

00;31;12;14 - 00;31;41;02
Speaker 3
Less positive psychology. Call it try, try and do what it is to open that up and let the mirror neurons do its magic. So they are very powerful and they are available with us. Humans have communicated without words for centuries. And why are we not tapping into an inherent ability in us and not communicating? And this is again, many people do it many different ways and use the technique that is right for the group.

00;31;41;04 - 00;31;53;20
Speaker 3
And again, make sure there are right people in the group. So that is right. Conversations. And we all know the group dynamics and there is a lot of science to it. So make sure the right people are involved in the first place.

00;31;53;23 - 00;32;03;28
Speaker 2
So and forget your podcast The Butterfly Effect. So you haven't checked it out. Please do create some great stuff, but do it.

00;32;04;00 - 00;32;13;13
Speaker 3
it'll you get released sometime in middle of June. So I will say I'll follow my LinkedIn and yeah, I do, yeah.

00;32;13;15 - 00;32;30;07
Speaker 2
Thank you. Paul Byrne, all the way from Europe is saying this is fantastic, but do you really think organizations really consider mindful pauses or do they just put their foot on the pedal and go, go, go?

00;32;30;09 - 00;32;51;29
Speaker 3
Paul, year on, I know the answer. So we can be a Titanic again. Programs the can. Yeah. So you know that's on the lighter side. But again this is one thing as thought leaders I think we need to change this in industry. So it's too big an opportunity. Any transformation is too big an opportunity to not go well.

00;32;51;29 - 00;32;55;22
Speaker 3
So let's do what we can to keep it in the right.

00;32;55;24 - 00;33;16;26
Speaker 2
Well. And also as consultants program directors, it's our job to to help our clients track the balance. Right. Because they don't know. They don't know what they don't know. They haven't done this before. They've done this 20 years ago. So, the rest of go, go, go without a pause. Call it mindful or not. Right. The concept is the same.

00;33;16;28 - 00;33;38;04
Speaker 2
Is are we still are we still on the right track and we're still in the right direction, especially on projects that are failing, right? You and I, our teams get brought into projects that have been going on for five six years, and no one knows when it will end. There is no plan. It's just the vendors saying, well, it's not working, and the client saying, yeah, you're right, it's not working.

00;33;38;04 - 00;34;04;04
Speaker 2
Let's keep working at it. Yeah. So in that situation, it's almost like you need to disrupt business. And it's and in those cases, it's not a, not so much a mindful but as it's like you're going to hit the iceberg on purpose to stop the train and assess. so that happens right when you don't pay attention to where you are, why you're on this journey, and what's the end game?

00;34;04;07 - 00;34;10;09
Speaker 2
Because you can lose track of that if if you're not doing this program management thing mindfully.

00;34;10;11 - 00;34;19;17
Speaker 3
Absolutely. And, that's a very good point. So doing the same thing repeatedly doesn't give us the same results. Yeah.

00;34;19;19 - 00;34;49;22
Speaker 2
Correct. great discussion in, in the, in the chat boxes. And, let's see what what we have here. well, someone on my team is asking, how can we effectively balance the need for occasional pauses, but the overarching objective of improving infrastructure and services, what key factors we consider to determine when a pause is beneficial or when it might stop progress.

00;34;49;25 - 00;35;17;18
Speaker 3
So this is again a very good thing, right. So the answer lies in that. Questions. And it is some look in the rearview mirror. So you don't need an external person in many cases. So all this group spend conscious boss faces mostly the answer lies within that group. So the facilitators job is to help derive those answers and help and, you know, help everyone, everyone to identify that.

00;35;17;18 - 00;35;24;29
Speaker 3
So the answer answer is in those is in those questions. And for every organization, every circumstance it's different.

00;35;25;01 - 00;35;41;14
Speaker 2
So what. Yeah. And that leads me to my next question, right is as project program managers, I mean, we chose this life, but also, it's not once in a lifetime for us. We do this every day.

00;35;41;17 - 00;35;42;06
Speaker 3


00;35;42;08 - 00;36;09;11
Speaker 2
On the clients. And this is a shock. They can't wait till this process is over. So they can get on with their lives. So there's a lot of stress involved, right? And there's many different people identify with stress differently. They define stress differently. They respond to stress differently. And what are some of your techniques for managing stress within your teams and more importantly, on the client side, because it's unmanaged, it's going unmanaged okay.

00;36;09;16 - 00;36;10;03
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;10;06 - 00;36;39;18
Speaker 3
So and as as you rightly say, we do it for a living, we know what we are signing up for. So we do know what it's like to do endless covert. We're sorry we can't do all that stuff. And also and, and also the challenges that come with it. So people like us are special. Great. So Paul and I often say, well, people, I'm sure you'd agree with me when I say that special breeds become get into the life of projects.

00;36;39;18 - 00;37;02;05
Speaker 3
And then some of some of us, you know, some of us take on additional roles as well. So, so for a client, it's different. So the way I look at it, it's like, well, culture and I were talking about it, a surgeon versus a patient. So a surgeon does it for a living, sees many, many patients and goes through that one.

00;37;02;12 - 00;37;26;27
Speaker 3
They've they've made the technique really well. So they've, they experienced you trust them with your life. And the second one is for a patient, it's Alonzo Lifetime thing. And hopefully most surgeries are. But there is also a process that the patient needs to go through. So which is preparing for the surgery. And what are we on the back of repeated and depends on the surgery and the depending on the person and depending on so many parameters.

00;37;27;05 - 00;37;50;11
Speaker 3
Recovery is hard. Surgery is hard, recovery soft transformations are hard, so nothing, nothing more than there is nothing. No substitute to not setting up the expectations. So when a client is signing up for it, it is not an easy thing. No matter what any vendor says, transformation is not easy. It is like rebirth. It comes with its pain.

00;37;50;11 - 00;38;09;18
Speaker 3
It comes with its growth. It comes with its challenges. Yes, at the end you may have something very, very beautiful, but you have to work for it. Everyone involved would work for it, especially you as the organization who is choosing to put the hand in heart and say, yes, I'm ready for transformation. So and then other people can help you.

00;38;09;23 - 00;38;32;19
Speaker 3
And again, there is also concepts on one of the clients, client conversation I had sometime back. this this week was we are implementing a system which is taking longer and everyone's frustrated. And the sponsor goes, what can I do to take the pain away? It was a very genuine question on can we add resources and make this shorter.

00;38;32;21 - 00;38;50;16
Speaker 3
See the pain in that person's eyes. But the thing is it is a growth pain. So can you have a baby in about a month. And do you actually want that. You know what I mean. So it's a it's a kind of a very tricky thing. Okay. You don't transformation comes with its own pain. Set up the expectations right.

00;38;50;18 - 00;39;19;25
Speaker 3
And also ensure we are everyone is better with them with the organization. Honest journey for the organization. Surround yourself with the right advisors who have got your interest in mind. So as you go through this pain, they are guiding you through the process. So let's say if someone's embarking on a surgery, they normally have a recovery team, but then you would have a team of physiotherapists, then, you know, multiple health professionals who would help that person.

00;39;19;27 - 00;39;42;26
Speaker 3
And transformation is no different to have that team with you, people who have got your interest or got your back and help them on that journey. So a case study where we have seen this happen really well in the recent years, that up to so one organization was a complete greenfield implementation. And they put in a new technology and they went for the latest and greatest.

00;39;42;26 - 00;40;02;20
Speaker 3
And it was a conscious choice for them. And for them, yes, there was a lot of challenge as they got on to this. But the important thing is they were prepared for it. So this was if if you want to use the surgery time, it's one of the hardest surgeries anyone can undertake. But the person in this case the organization was prepared for it.

00;40;02;22 - 00;40;12;23
Speaker 3
So that was good. As a result, the recovery was faster and the other one was a blueshield.

00;40;12;25 - 00;40;16;08
Speaker 2
Take it time.

00;40;16;10 - 00;40;20;09
Speaker 1
Get it?

00;40;20;12 - 00;40;21;04
Speaker 3
I.

00;40;21;06 - 00;40;29;09
Speaker 2
Think we lost to it, but temporarily. Hopefully. I'll give you an example. how's it going? Oh. She's back. You okay?

00;40;29;14 - 00;40;32;14
Speaker 3
I'm back in. Just have some water. Sorry.

00;40;32;16 - 00;40;33;05
Speaker 2
Oh. It's you.

00;40;33;08 - 00;40;57;29
Speaker 3
So. Yeah. See you at the other one was a blue field where, Okay. It was a informed, longer term transformation. And the jet journey, that company that goes on with, goes on at different stages. Yes. They had very specific transformations dropping at specific stages, but then they were prepared for it. So this is like running, you know, multiple sprints together.

00;40;58;05 - 00;41;15;07
Speaker 3
So it's like you get the team ready and, do it. So these are the ways they delegate it. In the end. The greenfield at this they got the benefit at the end. But the Bluefield one had incremental benefit. But they were able to demonstrate and then push the savings back into the program.

00;41;15;07 - 00;41;54;11
Speaker 2
So so I want to I want to ask the audience a question. So we got some real good discussion going. especially the project managers, program managers in here, on in the audience right now. What has been the most, you know, what's what's been the an example of where leadership at your client organizations have, you know, had to step in to, you know, provide this mindful pause because, you know, as, as consultants, as PMS, we drive the project plan, we work the plan.

00;41;54;11 - 00;42;17;07
Speaker 2
We want to make sure the vendors are in check and leadership at the client side plays a really good important. So yeah, just pop in there with your answers on on some examples of when that has happened, when the leadership has taken it upon themselves to clear the boards at great risk to the organization. Right. whether it be political or financial.

00;42;17;10 - 00;42;44;09
Speaker 2
So I would love to, but to see that, see some comments on that. and meanwhile Jared, what again let's let's talk about leadership again. We talk about this a lot internally. Right. Leadership is different from management. And it takes both things to make a project successful. Project like this very successful. So what role we've talked about management a little bit.

00;42;44;12 - 00;42;56;11
Speaker 2
how does leadership differ according to you and how do you think, that plays an important role, as you're implementing a large ERP system, especially in context of mindfulness.

00;42;56;14 - 00;43;17;24
Speaker 3
So, I'll share what one of my mentors have shared. Management is taught while leadership is learned. So this is that this has stayed with me for a long time. So leadership in arts, and I guess we know enough. We all become leaders in different things at different times. And it comes with its own set of learnings.

00;43;17;26 - 00;43;42;03
Speaker 3
So this is about embracing the learnings and working on it. And leadership, in my opinion, comes up with its own set of vulnerabilities as well. The person is embracing the vulnerability, working with the vulnerability, and is willing to sit and make a stand to be a leader, a leader normally has the interest of the team and the organization, not the bigger picture in mind.

00;43;42;03 - 00;44;02;10
Speaker 3
While decision making. Yes, there is personal flavors and everything else goes that goes with it and the styles are different in everything. Overall, a leader is someone who has the bigger picture in mind while making decisions and sometimes decisions. Decisions are made with very little time so.

00;44;02;12 - 00;44;03;01
Speaker 2
Or information.

00;44;03;08 - 00;44;16;27
Speaker 3
To roll with it. Exactly. So good leaders are definitely made. It's the and we make them and we want to make better work better world. We need to invest in better in creating better leaders.

00;44;16;29 - 00;44;38;06
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So what advice, what advice. And in the audience? I'd love to hear your answers on this too. What advice would you give someone or a team that's just starting an ERP implementation journey that they haven't done it before? The team is new. They've had this 30 year old ERP and they're saying, we need change. What do you what do you recommend they do?

00;44;38;12 - 00;45;10;18
Speaker 3
First, in my opinion, first thing to do is to be very open with, with themselves. Like if you're in dive before, what's the first thing you do in life? Get advice, surround a surround yourself with advisors, multiple advisors who have your interest in mind, and they can help you navigate, what you need to do. There are many things that, you know, transformation may look like it starts one day, but it's not in realistic terms.

00;45;10;18 - 00;45;33;25
Speaker 3
We all know that those who work to transformations, it took it takes ages before the day of kickoff or day of whatever. So there's a lot of preparation activities, be it in mind or in spirit or physical preparation like data cleansing. There is a lot of activities that needs to happen.

00;45;33;27 - 00;46;02;25
Speaker 2
And, you know, there's there's, I think there's there's a growing movement or thought in the vendor community that as consultants spend too much time on those things, the preparation. And now we're talking about mindful pauses. I know some lavender friends are going to be like, here he goes again with slowing our process down. Right? Especially in governments where it takes an RFP and takes months to put a good one together.

00;46;02;27 - 00;46;24;06
Speaker 2
we've heard from top lenders saying, you guys need to speed this up. Why are you taking so long to take this to market? So you need to combat that with reality and find common ground, right? What are your thoughts on on that? And on one hand, yes, we can spin our wheels on redefining processes and requirements and in.

00;46;24;06 - 00;46;46;12
Speaker 2
But but where's that fine line. Because you have to be really prepared to go forward and on the client's behalf. We advocate for that slowness. because it that doesn't always mean it's you're doing it absolutely correctly. But at least you have the time to catch your mistakes. What are your thoughts to look.

00;46;46;14 - 00;47;13;27
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So most of the time when we get involved in programs, sa as we all know, everyone that everyone believes they're against a clock or a deadline or something of the other. The thing that we are constantly combating is the battle of time. So either it's made up outed some months, you know, for some, some reason for political and made up deadline or whatever.

00;47;13;29 - 00;47;49;09
Speaker 3
that is, it's, it's a real constraint that we that we balance. And it's the, it's the narrow line that we walk. So what we as leaders in the program management space can do is yes, do the basics right. Come up with a realistic plan, budgets, all the stuff that we do as, PMS, program directors, whatever it is, do what we need to do and also introduce the concept to the organization, because the conscious boss concept is not well known to the organizations just because they don't know the value of it.

00;47;49;16 - 00;48;17;20
Speaker 3
And sometimes they, you know, most organizations that we deal with, let's face it, our bricks and mortar businesses, they if they want a product, they order it. And it's it's their and the processes are established. So they they have the specifications and they have everything ready. And they apply the same mindset to transformation programs. And that's when things go very, very challenging for everyone involved because it is because of the mindset.

00;48;17;20 - 00;48;41;22
Speaker 3
So educate them that the transformation is different. It is not ordering a product that is going to be there at a specific time. It is a journey. So and the power is in the journey. If the journey is not enjoyable, there is more indicators that the end result hasn't achieved what the transformation should have achieved. So make sure the journey is enjoyable.

00;48;41;28 - 00;49;00;03
Speaker 3
Yes, the procurement there is a deadline and there is multiple constraints that we need to work with, but make sure we are working with the right constraints and sometimes conscious boss gives you the ability to navigate or negotiate the constraints in a completely different way. And another you have to.

00;49;00;06 - 00;49;23;07
Speaker 2
Yeah, and such a great point. You just made the navigate or negotiate. Right. And as, as a as a client, as the organization buying the thing, you're never at the mercy of the consultant or the vendor because we see a lot this a lot. Right. The vendor will come in and say you are going to go live on in six months.

00;49;23;09 - 00;49;47;03
Speaker 2
Okay, tell me how. And then they don't have a project plan or anything to back that up. So navigate or negotiate is a is a great concept. to keep in mind because you are you are in charge of your own baby. not not someone else. Judith, where where can people find you and your work? I know you said Butterfly Effect.

00;49;47;03 - 00;50;03;10
Speaker 2
The podcast is coming out mid-June. I'm excited for you. That is such a great, step for you to take. but but where do people find your work? Where do they find you? How do they connect and give us some tips on, on how the audience can network with each other more effectively?

00;50;03;12 - 00;50;29;26
Speaker 3
Absolutely. And I'm open in LinkedIn. and yes, send me a connection request and we can have a chat. And, I'm, also working on establishing a forum. So with thought leaders, like asking constantly exchange ideas. So there is, a very big gap in the industry where all of us can fill in the gap and, you know, and make a true difference to our clients and each other's in our lives.

00;50;29;29 - 00;50;38;05
Speaker 3
So, yeah, to answer your question, LinkedIn. Yeah, that's the best way to get me and watch out for the podcast. And the forks coming up.

00;50;38;08 - 00;51;12;00
Speaker 2
Excellent. And and we overall have created a checklist. If you look on the screen, click on the, you know, scan the QR code and you'll find the executives checklist to ERP implementation. I think we're going to add mindful biases to that checklist. right. Because it's such an important concept. But download that list, to see where you stand, to see where you need to go as you get on the CRP journey.

00;51;12;02 - 00;51;28;21
Speaker 2
the the other thing, let's let's see if we have any questions. yeah. Paul Bern wants to go to an island. No, that's that's Clay that wants to. Here's a great comment. Let's let's rent out a private island for a week to the project budget template. Okay. Good luck.

00;51;28;23 - 00;51;30;13
Speaker 3
Great idea. Yeah.

00;51;30;15 - 00;51;53;28
Speaker 2
I love that idea, but I want to see you sell it to our clients. Judith, thank you so much for joining us today. I think I think you've been a fantastic guest. I can't wait to see what you do next. And, you know, hopefully we can collaborate in the future, not just on live streams, but actual, work where we'd love to, you know, bring some of these concepts to our clients.

00;51;54;01 - 00;52;14;29
Speaker 2
so thank you again for joining us. I hope to see you and talk to you again soon. we will be attending the CFO conference in Orlando in a few days. We're super excited. There will be there in full force to come see us at, booth 632. we are, we have some great giveaways, we have some great events that we are hosting.

00;52;15;01 - 00;52;47;04
Speaker 2
And more importantly, we're there to, talk through your ERP implementations if it's going well, not going well, if it's something you're thinking of doing, imminently, we're absolutely there to, give you all of our free advice. so come, come see us there. also, we are, live on Wednesday mornings. is sometime in the US, and all of our content is available on our website, which we have popped up into the chat box here and our YouTube channel.

00;52;47;04 - 00;53;03;18
Speaker 2
So, let's let's stay engaged. Let's stay excited about this, very important work we're doing and look forward to seeing you next time. Judith. Thank you again. any any parting comments? Words of wisdom. More words of wisdom.

00;53;03;21 - 00;53;11;24
Speaker 3
thank you very much again for having me. Let's follow up. Like, have a conscious pulse and deliver great outcomes for our clients. Fantastic.

00;53;11;26 - 00;53;13;27
Speaker 2
Great. Thank you so much. Thank you.

00;53;13;27 - 00;53;38;27
Speaker 1
AV that's a wrap on today's episode of untangled. For more exciting insights, remember you can find a Avero on YouTube at a Avero Advisors and other social media platforms, and don't miss out on our weekly newsletter on LinkedIn, where we delve even deeper into digital transformation. Interested in a career at Avero? Simply visit our Career Center on our website to see how you can join our team.

00;53;38;29 - 00;53;46;29
Speaker 1
Thank you for joining us on untangled, your reliable source for understanding the intricate crossroads of technology and local governance. Until next time.