Megan (00:02):
I'm joined today by our fearless leader and CEO, Mr. Abhijit Verekar. Good morning, AV morning.
(00:10)
It's been a while since we've had the OG crew on, so I'm excited to talk to you today about cross-functional collaboration when it comes to local governments and projects that they're taking on. Real quick, for those of you who are joining us, please let us know where you're joining from and please ask questions. We love answering your all's questions and we love hearing your thoughts and ideas on our topics. And if you don't know who a Avero is, we are an independent third party consulting firm helping local cities and counties and quasi-government agencies modernize through technology. Without further ado, I'm going to dive right into our topic today, which is cross-functional collaboration. So to kick us off AV, I want to real quickly discuss how effective collaboration impacts the speed and the quality of decision-making within local government entities in your opinion.
AV (01:13):
So this is a topic that has been talked about quite often, right? Because we talk about it too, that you're not necessarily talking about technological projects here. These are people projects, and the biggest way that problems crop up or because of silos, traditionally, departments are set up to do a specific function, and there really was no need when they were set up to talk to other departments at a very basic level, accounting, did accounting and public works did public works and they had their own set of books. And as things have progressed in the world of efficiency thinking and organizational sort of design, cross-functional leadership class, functional knowledge transfer, and using each other's resources have become very important. So when you look at an organization that is siloed in its approach, it's probably not as siloed as it used to be, right? It's always taking a step towards integration and interfacing with other departments.
(02:30)
And then you're talking about integrating systems. So it can become very cumbersome if a traditionally very siloed organization is now talking about enterprise resource planning, which means that they have to work in a cross-functional manner, share data, share resources, and work together to accomplish several tasks so that at the very high level, at the executive level, people can report on these processes and provide information back to the stakeholders that matter. So being siloed and not having cross-functional cooperation at the very least, can be very detrimental to any kind of modernization efforts. And we see that show up in many different ways. So extremely important to answer your question in a short way.
Megan (03:23):
Yes, it is very important. So with that being said, where do the leadership teams, where do they start? How do they start? They all come with their own ideas of what needs to be fixed first. So where do they start and how do they align their vision and their goals?
AV (03:43):
Right, so let's set the stage, right. When you talk about fixing things, what does that mean? You're talking about making things more efficient for the organization. So a great example is having multiple systems that do very specific specialized things for each department, right? Public works has their own system, finances has their own public safety, has their own systems, the schools have their own systems. So really depends on how the organization is set up and what they're using today. So making things better from a consultant standpoint is, you know, integrating things, making things more efficient, having more access to data, making things more transparent. Whatever's important to the organization's leadership needs to happen in an efficient manner. Now the roadblocks to that are historical decisions, which, you know, were made with the best intentions and with the most available information at the time. So you shouldn't look back and say, you're siloed, because you made bad decisions 20 years ago. You're siloed today.
(04:55)
So let's look at where we are. A good story is we just talked to a client that is a large public utility that is using not only disjointed systems, but also spreadsheets, multiple access databases that are, sort of... They've been cobbled together and they're held together by duct tape, right? So each department has their own functions within these, you know, collection of systems, and they want to desperately get away from this frank 'n monster of a system that works for them, kind of. But it wouldn't work if they didn't have the spreadsheets and the people and the paper. So how do you untangle this mess of Christmas lights? And they didn't know where to begin. So their idea was to take it one module at a time and shore up finance and HR, keep the old system going and then replace the older system with something new eventually. Now, I think that's going to make the problem worse because as you untangle this problem, not only are you siloed, but you've created some very specific custom integrations between the silos for that one data element that you might need every three months.
(06:26)
So as you take away modules and modernize them, you're not necessarily creating a solution. You're only going to make it more difficult for these silos to work. In fact, you're going to make it more siloed because a newer SaaS-based cloud hosted solution is probably not going to integrate well with a homegrown old school system that's built on a platform, by the way, that has been out of support now for many years. So you're talking about taking away modules, modernizing them, and then having to build custom integrations or APIs into an older system. So you're going to make the silos worse. So where do you start as a great question?
Megan (07:10)
Yeah.
(07:11)
And it depends on what your priorities are and how bad of a current situation you have. So to that client, our recommendation was you start with all of it all at once. Of course, not completely throwing out the system, there's a way to do it, but really it all comes down to what's the organizational priority, where's the main pain points, and being careful about what you're pulling apart here because you pull on one direction and something else might break. That's been working okay for now, but now it completely won't work. So real careful discussion and discovery and process mapping and requirements definition and data flow planning, all of that needs to take place to, you know, really break silos.
Megan (08:00):
I love your comment about the Frank'n system or whatever you said. I think we could probably do a whole marketing, yeah Frank 'n monster. Yeah, I think we could do a whole marketing campaign just around that. But, so going back to strategic planning and aligning goals and visioning, how would a third party consultant like Avero Advisors help align that visioning with the leadership in each department?
AV (08:29):
See, the issue that we face is that the leaders aren't necessarily technology folks. They understand the outcomes that they need or they should be looking for, but how to get there is a whole other ball game, right? So our job is always to give the executives an understanding of what the ground reality is, where are we today, what it all means, and how important it is to not just blow everything up and go buy a new system. Because as top executives, they are engineers, they're, you know, politicians. They're dentists that ran for mayor. City managers that have spent their career being architects or economists. So deep understanding of technology is not as important, but it's important to understand the moving parts and how each set of problems impact on another set of problems. So it's not one thing that you're fixing. So going back to the utilities issue, they had so many custom built access databases that interfaced with an older out of support database that interfaced with some spreadsheets.
(09:51)
So really, where does your data live and how are you going to bring it forward becomes very important. So educating our sponsors and clients in what IT may have been trying to tell them for years, translating into what that means to an executive to the bottom line of the organization is critically important. And that's where we begin, right? Because educating them will give them an idea of how grave or easy the problem is and what the strategy should be, how much money they're going to need to solve this problem. How do you sell this to your legislature or the board of directors? All of that becomes critically important. And then I firmly believe as important and complicated as the technology seems to be, it's even more important to set the stage for a major overhaul like that. So from that will come cross-functional collaboration and breaking of silos. But it's a complicated process.
Megan (10:57):
Right, right. Well, it all goes back to understanding the job role of each individual, right? In any project. And I think a lot of times people think because the word technology is in the project that IT owns it, it's their project that's we're going to listen to them and they're doing the hard integrations and the data management, and they don't necessarily do the day-to-day operations from an HR standpoint or from a finance standpoint. So it is so important to understand job function and role and what role those play in big projects like this, other, or beyond the immediate project outcomes, what long-term cultural changes have you observed in your seat that embrace cross-functional collaboration?
AV (11:53):
I think it comes from the top right when there's new leadership, especially there's new life sort of breathed into the organization and leaders take a close look at the org chart and see what's working, what's not working, do we have the right people in the right places? Retirements of long serving leaders also gives, you know, existing leadership perspective on how the organization should be run. So again, it doesn't all come down to technology. It's hardcore basic management. Who's in the seat on the org chart that is driving a specific function or department, and are they the right person in the right seat? And I've seen those kind of cultural shifts also change things. But if you're talking about integrating systems and cross-functional collaboration using and integrated systems, that's sort of an output of what happens on the management side.Megan (12:57):
And I know one of the services that we offer is business process mapping. So can you talk about that a little bit more specifically around how it helps identify common key pain points and how it helps facilitate, right, this cross-functional collaboration? When you bring everybody together in a room,AV (13:20):
I'm a huge fan of business process analysis and mapping and redesign. It helps you get a visual of what's going on.Megan (13:28):
Right.AV (13:28):
Because in absence of that, it's all stories. It's anecdotal, it's historical knowledge, it's tribal knowledge, and it's not on paper. And the best examples of success using these techniques has been areas where we've mapped a large process. And in the process of doing that, we've talked to several people that do the same job maybe in different buildings, but they do it completely differently to the point where it seems like it's a whole other process. So really trying to find commonalities between processes and distilling them down to what they really are is a critical aspect of finding efficiencies. And then from there you can see what's redundant, what are roadblocks, where are the handoffs? Because typically when a process is handed off between a department to another department or a function, that's when you have things falling through the cracks.
(14:34)
So those are really critical aspects of process mapping. And that sort of lays the foundation for cross-functional collaboration because again, you have a great visual of what a set of processes look like and how they're connected to each other, and you start asking questions about should they be more connected? Is this the point where some other department is to come in and provide their opinions? A great example is the whole permitting and zoning and plans review process, right? Lots of parties involved, permitting department, engineering, fire department, sometimes the health department. And at what point do you in this process bring in an outside agency that is still part of the city or county, but, you know, not necessarily part of the same department, and are they using the same system? So those sort of things become really visible when you map it on paper or on Visio, I'm sorry, on IBM, Blueworks live as we do or on Visio. If that's your only option, it's really important to have a visual of what's going on in the organization, and it helps to have an outside party do it because you're too close to the problem. You know? You might think of a process as one giant box on a Visio chart, but that box may be made up of 10 different subprocesses or substeps. That may be the cause of some of the inefficiencies you're facing.
Megan (16:08):
Some of the clunkiness. Yes, right. I know IBM Blue works and business process mapping is one technology tool, right? That can enhance this collaboration. In your experience, is there any other technologies that could do the same thing other than mapping out business processes?
AV (16:26):
The new thing is business process mining. Where you are not necessarily talking to people, but there's a set of software programs you run in the background that allow you to collect data on where the choke points might be in the process. And depending on how well you have your backend system set up, these programs can then go find you the information and then you still need to layer on top of that the people element of it, because what process mining is doing is really just looking at how data flows through your system. And is it taking redundant paths? Should there be an easier way to do this? But it's not taking into account people. So process mining is something that we are starting to look into, but I think the roadblock to that is that you need to have some fairly modern systems. And I may be wrong, so correct me the audience, but if you're running a 30-year-old as 400 green screen, I don't think process mining is going to work for you. But it does work on newer systems that are well configured.
Megan (17:41):
Okay. And then how do we ensure that the momentum for collaboration is carried out throughout the project? How do we keep that momentum up?
AV (17:55):
It's hard. It comes down to leadership. It also comes down to what the end result is, right? You need to drive this to some sort of an improvement, some sort of a project that is achieved, and then you have to keep the momentum up by sticking to those standards. Maybe not for that specific project. But we've seen it in several places where you implement a new system and to do that is taken such a lot of collaboration. People get to know each other. We've had projects where you're going from a green screen system to a modern SaaS based in the cloud solution. That's a lot of work. So no matter how good the consultant is, at the end of the day, you're going to have to spend time as a finance director, as the purchasing director, as an accounting clerk, really deeply understanding and questioning your current processes.
(18:52)
And that causes friction. That also allows people to get to know each other better. That fosters some more collaboration. And there are fights. There's, you know, people are territorial and they don't necessarily want to give their territories up but, effective change management project management gets us through those humps. And with a new system that works more efficiently, because you've put so much work into it, these collaborations become natural. I've seen people go from strangers to enemies through an implementation to almost best friends on the other side because now they have a deep understanding what the other person's going through. And a classic example of that is the tussle between a finance department and a purchasing department or purchasing department and public works in engineering, where the two worlds are kind of different. Purchasing is their job is to protect the organization and the integrity of the purchasing process and protecting the taxpayer dollar. And sometimes it can seem like people are just buying things because they want them.
Megan (20:08):
Okay. Oh are you good? Yes. Okay. Can you further describe what the PM's role is in fostering collaboration in these types of projects? Can you break down what that may look like and where they fit into this piece to help these teams come together?
AV (20:31):
So a PM can be internal or external. Right? Project manager. When you take on a project that is either process redesign or new system implementation, their job is one of, you know, a conductor or a ring leader. Project managers put on several different hats especially--
Megan (20:59):
Quarterback. I like to use.
AV (20:59):
Quarterback.
(21:00)
Yeah.
(21:00)
A coach, you know, depending on what's going on, a savvy consulting project manager-- and by the way, we're looking for a savvy consulting project manager.
Megan (21:11):
We are.
AV (21:11):
So give us a shout. It's different from let's say a construction project manager, right? A construction project manager. It's also a difficult job. You're keeping a large development in check, you're dealing with the players, you're dealing with timelines and material, but you're not necessarily involved in the design or education of a client on what this thing is going to look like in the end. A consulting ERP project manager is a critical role, and the ideal candidate has some experience in consulting. They've been a senior consultant, they've been on several implementations, and they understand not necessarily the technology, but the type of technology and the methods and the challenges that can be faced. And so their job is to make sure that one, everyone's on the same page that they're communicated with, two, that they're keeping track of budgets and invoices and just making sure that the project is headed towards the right outcomes. And a lot of trust is involved in this, right? They have to be savvy enough to build trust with the lowest of the totem pole in the client organization. They have to be savvy enough to build relationships within the company they work for because you never know which skillset you might need
(22:43)
At any given time. So you have to have your finger on the pulse of what's going on with the client, with the project, and with your own team. So you can lean on people that have a little more experience or a little more skills in a specific aspect of project. So really, really critical job and it can make or break a project.
Megan (23:05):
We do have some comments in the chat. I would like to go to really quickly, Dennis, thank you for joining us. You're joining us from India today. He says, use Audit 360 as a solution to do an audit and provide hardcore facts. And he also says all problems are lack of unified communication systems, ability, availability. Sorry, I can't read today, guys.
AV (23:31):
No, thank you, Dennis.
Megan (23:32):
Thank you, Dennis.
AV (23:33):
That's a couple of great recommendations. We'll check out.
Megan (23:36):
Yes, absolutely. And then Klay, who is one of our project team members. I want to learn more about business process mining data is so valuable if you know how to read it, and that is very true as well. Thank you, Klay. Thank you, clay. Okay, so we talked about the role of a project manager, but from your seat, what emerging trends do you see in government modernization that will require this cross-functional collaboration?
AV (24:08):
All of it.
Megan (24:09):
Yup.
AV (24:09):
I mean, especially... You know, you've got all in one systems that are that claim to do everything that you want it to do. And the only way to find out is really through our methods, right? Process redesign, process mapping, requirements definitions. Taking a deep look at your organization and how it's set up today, what kind of systems you're using. So the only way to see if a vendor or a product fits you is to do that kind of introspection. And it shouldn't be done after the fact.
Megan (24:44):
Right.
AV (24:44):
That's the worst thing to do, right? You don't buy something and then see how it works. You don't build a house and then see what kind of rooms you want to put in there. All of this needs to be planned out and talked about and documented before you get into a large scale selection. So, it's critical to have that strategy before you go into any kind of project like this.
Megan (25:12):
It is, and maybe the better question was how do agencies prepare for the future? As in once a consultant is finished with said project, right? How do they continue to use those methodologies and hold themselves accountable to those same processes?AV (25:31):
It's hard. I mean, a football team can run without a coach. In theory. You have all the playbooks and you have the plays, but what do you need a coach for? Because you have someone from the outside, from the sidelines looking at the whole picture. You can have that internally, but it's hard to deploy an internal project manager consultant. It's been done before. I've seen it done successfully. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of smart people and it takes good leadership that doesn't give up on the process. Megan (26:08):
Right.AV (26:08):
You can do this again, seen it happen, seen it done. We had a client that within it had a whole department called Operational Excellence, and they were kind of their internal consultants. Of course, they also hired external consultants to staff opex sometimes, but that was the arm. They would just go and go to a certain department, talk to their users about systems they're using, come back, share the intel with IT, and come up with ways to help different departments. Of course, it was a large organization, a large department, so they could do things like that. But it's one of the coolest things I've seen done well. You can do it, but that team was dedicated to operational excellence kind of stuff.
(26:55)
You can't do it part-time. You can't do it part-time, and you can't do it if you don't have a well-functioning IT department.
Megan (27:07):
Right.
AV (27:08):
I mean everyone has day jobs, including IS folks. They have a lot on their plate. They're understaffed. They have bunch of tickets to pay attention to. So it's not an easy thing to pull off in house, and especially because it tends to be temporary. If you do this well, the project's going to be done and you can move on to your day jobs. So taking a really critical look at, do you want to do this for a project or is this a culture you want to establish? Right? And then it's a different story because you're setting standards for the long haul and you're not going to see results in one or two years. So it can be frustrating, but these are two different things. If you're trying to have a culture of continuous improvement and consultative thinking within the organization where you want people thinking about business process redesign and analysis as they do their daily jobs, but you also have an ERP implementation that's going sideways. Two different things. You can't expect your full-time employees to pay full attention to an implementation. You need somebody from the outside.
Megan (28:23):
You do. And I like this idea of what I like to call a culture club, right, or a committee, right, or a board within the organization. Pull somebody from HR, from it, from procurement, from finance, and let them own that. Like you say, part-time. They can still get advice from a third party consultant, which I think is key too, because people like us, we have seen it across the country, right? We know what works in our methods work. And so being able to share those ideas with sort of a board, right, that continues to hold teams accountable and move through the future, I think is a great idea. I love that, actually. Love that. Let me go to the comments again. So sorry, I think we've sort of answered this. This is a good one. Talking about leadership style. So how does leadership style impact collaboration in government projects?
AV (29:21):
How does leadership style impact collaboration? I think like any other organization, right? It's critical to have strong leadership when you are taking on a multimillion dollar project. We just wrapped up a large scale negotiation for a county double digit, million dollar project. And it's not an easy one to pull off. And it's not done yet, we were about to start this implementation. But it came down to very strong leadership out of the finance department. Great relationships with legislature, they have a large legislature, almost 30 legislatures, legislators, and good relationships with the CIO's office.
Megan (30:16):
Right.
AV (30:18):
And experienced folks, right? These guys have been there for a while, but they also have other experience. And the great part about that set of leadership is that they were very open. They didn't come in with preconceived notions about how they've seen it work 30 years ago. They recognize that they haven't done this sort of implementation or selection in a long time and allowed the consulting group to present facts and opinions and experiences and then made decisions based on that. We also love that client because they have super high standards and they ask us tough questions. So it tested our abilities to deliver and also to guide them along the path. So leadership is critical. It's not always one style that works, but whichever style it is, you have to be committed to the process. You can try to find shortcuts, and you need to be humble enough to know what you don't know.
Megan (31:33):
Right. Well, I think you have to be open-minded too and realize that, hey, I'm never going to change if I keep doing things the way I've always done it. So where do I start with that? And I think it goes back to, you know I'm a big relationship person. You know, the simplicity of building relationships within your organization and outside of your organization. Bringing multiple ideas to the table, but also making sure that ideas are heard. So I love that. And we do have a comment from Lexi. A culture club is a really neat idea, and I imagine it helps keep internal morale up within a project. Yes, I agree with that. And my brain is spinning on that whole idea alone. I love that idea.
AV (32:20):
We're going to have a culture club, arent we?
Megan (32:21):
We need to have a culture club. Yes. As soon as I get off this call, I'm going to brainstorm that.
AV (32:27):
Well, it's a big part.
Megan (32:28):
It is.
AV (32:30):
A big part of change management, right? Culture club, whatever it really is. Making sure that the culture, isn't, and again, what that means is a whole other set of stories. And I'm doing a session tomorrow, by the way, with our friend Leslie Beal on culture and all things that go with it in her leadership forum. So it's important, especially on a project that is high risk, high dollar, to make sure that change management, an often used word, is front and center. Are the people aware of what the project is? Are they knowledgeable about it? Are they interested in it? Do they want to go along for the ride? And all of that is related to change management and could be considered culture management. Right? If you have a culture of people not wanting to change and not wanting to do anything new, you're going to have an uphill battle, but not impossible, because you can change that culture with the right leadership. Some key players and the right communication and incentives. It can change. So, it's critical.
Megan (33:52):
It can, and I think maybe a good point to make here is that not only are there organizational silos, people have personal silos, right? Based on certain things, whatever it may be. Internal, externally, they have personal silos that you have to break down by relationship building, by listening, by understanding their problems. Right? And I think it's important. We're talking about culture and leadership, and our executive team went through a whole retreat of how to communicate, right? We're all very different people, and we all have different backgrounds, and we come from different places. I'm very much a communicator, a lover, a I want to solve the problem, but I talk too much, right? But understanding that number one about myself and then also how it's perceived by the team, I think is important. And I think those same lessons can be taught in any organization. I do want, unless you have other comments, I'm going to wrap us up, but you know I've been doing this. Key takeaways. What are your two key takeaways from our conversation today?
AV (35:05):
I think the first one is that these aren't problems unique to one organization or one kind of organization. It's not just necessarily public sector. Cross-functional collaboration is a thing to be, you need to strive for it in every organization, and it's never perfect because at the end of the day, you're dealing with people and people dictate how systems work or it should. So thinking about this early and often is extremely important because it doesn't happen on the fly. And especially if you have older homegrown systems that you're trying to untangle away from, it's really important to think about how it all works together and how to untangle the Christmas lights. And it is fresh in my mind because we just had this long presentation a couple of days ago about this client that has this particular situation, and it seemed like they needed to do some more thinking about how to necessarily go about untangling this.
Megan (36:22):
Right? I think mine would be, if you see something, say something. Right? Before you go to RFP, before you start thinking about what the next big project is, if you recognize something that doesn't make sense in whatever seat you're in, whatever role you have, I think you need to ask those difficult questions. And it's not always easy. It's definitely a learned skill, but if something is burning in your brain, ask those questions. And then obviously this idea of culture club guys, I'm obsessed with it right now, and maybe we go live about ideas around that in the near future. But thank you for joining us today. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for your comments. Mackensie has shared the link to our newsletter, which is a really fun way to get information out, but it is called Untangled. Please subscribe to our newsletter. Please reach out to us if there's a topic that you would like to hear about.
(37:18)
And Travis Gardner just posted a comment, sorry I squirreled a little bit, but he says, most organizations have a wise and trusted agent that is well respected and embedded in the organization. A key to achieving change is to identify that person or persons and engage with them as an advocate for change. Yes, 100%. Travis, you're hired. No, thank you, Travis, for your comment. And again, reach out to us if there's something you would like to hear from or a topic that you would like us to discuss. AV thank you for your time today and I look forward to next week. Thanks guys. Thank you. Bye.